Tag: gearbox

VW Denmark is not budging in DSG7 problems

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In the last few months, some major media, here in Denmark, reported on DSG7 problems, and had interviews with PR-reps from VW Denmark. VW Denmark is not budging in DSG7 problems. Journalists were mostly asking same questions, and getting the same answers. Or, perhaps VW Denmark only answered on selected questions.

But, common theme in the articles were mostly asking, if VW thinks they have general problems with DSG7 transmission (internally known as DQ200). They of course answered with “no”. Volkswagen is claiming that they know about very few cases with problems, and that these were taken care of, either under warranty or ex-gratia, where consumers were asked to pay a part of the repair.

Another common theme in the VW answers were, indirect blame of the consumer for the problems. Declining to acknowledge the problems and responsibility, VW is automatically blaming consumer for the problems. They even used numbers to deflect the blame, and informed  journalists they sold 8.500 cars with DSG7 transmission, out of those VW claimed “only” 311 had problems. This is a 3,66% error margin, if we are just to take look at their numbers. Which I am not completely confident that the numbers are true. Even if the numbers are true, there is a question about what models it was sold with.

There are some models and engines more suitable for DSG7 specifications, and others are less suitable. Eg. engine torque, and the size/weight of the car.

An example to illustrate the issue

Another example of this (bad engine combinations) could be following;

DSG7 is rated at max. output of 250 Nm of torque.

  • Polo 1.2 TSI 90-105 BHP has about 160 – 175 Nm of torque
  • Touran 1.6 TDI with 105 BHP has 250 Nm of torque.

As you can see… Touran with TDI engines is riding on the limits of the DSG7 gearbox specifications. And this is only asking for troubles. That VW went anyway with this combination of engine and gearbox is beyond my understanding.

And consumers are to be blamed and pay for their design/manufacturing flaws?

So, now if I could only get VW of publicising the numbers of sold Polo’s and other models well within limitations of the DSG7 gearbox, and deduct that number from those 8.500, I am pretty sure error rate will be a lot higher, than 3.66%.

DSG DQ200 0AM – Problems and thoughts

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Was sent this few days ago. It’s a document that dwells a bit more into problems of VAG 7-speed DSG gearbox. In a bit more detail, than I was able to do and found before.

DSG DQ200 0AM – Problems and thoughts

There is one interesting thing here, that I was not aware of before, and it is the knowledge of the problem. According to this document, VAG/VW knew about the problem, at the time I bought the car. They did not acknowledge this, when I was ordering my car. I asked them specifically about any problems with this gearbox, and they told me in a way, that it is “the best they made”.

Court: DSG7 affected by a hidden defect preventing use under normal conditions

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A consumer in France, filed a lawsuit against VW, for troubles with DSG7 gearbox, and won. Interesting thing is, that his/hers problems with DSG7 are identical to mine. Here is the verdict, the most important parts.

(Translated by Google Translate)

Receives a request for declaring the cancellation of the sale of a motor vehicle
VOLKSWAGEN POLO Comfort Line, 5th Room – 1st Section of the Tribunal de Grande
Instance PARIS, January 16, 2013, held:
“In this particular case, the nature of the noise (obviously wrong), frequency (certain
for city traffic), its origin (gearbox), the technical impossibility of there
overcome the uncertainty and its impact on anxiety and distraction that can
naturally cause at one time or another, are all elements
incompatible with normal driving (comfortable and safe) that could be
expected of a new vehicle quality at the forefront of technological progress.
(…) The hidden nature of this defect, and prior to the sale have not been challenged and
arising from the content of documents submitted in evidence.
It must therefore be held that the vehicle sold to VOLKSWAGEN POLO Mrs. J. is
affected by a hidden defect preventing its use under normal conditions or
satisfactory.
The resolution of the sale of the vehicle must be ordered. ”
Accordingly, the Tribunal issued the resolution for latent defects of the vehicle
VOLKSWAGEN POLO sold January 14, 2011 to Mrs. J. by the MS Society.,
VOLKSWAGEN dealer in Paris.
– Sentenced MS Society. payable to Mrs J. a sum of € 17,212.69 in restitution
price paid
– Sentenced MS Society. to pay a sum of € 1,783.22 as damages
for the costs incurred by the purchase of the vehicle,
– Sentenced MS Society. payable to Mrs J. a sum of € 1,000 in compensation for his
pecuniary damage,
– Ordained to Mrs. J. proceed without delay to the return of the vehicle purchased January 14th
2011 at the MS Society.,
– Condemns the MS Society. payable to Mrs J. a sum of € 2,000 per application
Article 700 of the Code of Civil Procedure,
– Condemns the Company VOLKSWAGEN FRANCE GROUPE to ensure all
convictions against the MS Society. in favor of Mrs. J.
The Company VOLKSWAGEN FRANCE GROUPE pay the costs.
Mrs. J. was litigator: Master Eric KLEIN Bar PARIS

VW: DSG7 is not suitable for TAXI behaviour

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While I am waiting for the verdict of my complaint to danish authority for car complaints, I have discovered an article from Teknikens Värld (Swedish car mag). This article is rising an important point in the defective DSG7 gearboxes from VW.

Some taxi companies in Sweden, have been advised, by VW, not to buy models with DSG7 gearboxes. As they are not suitable for this behaviour, again, according to VW. As the gearbox and its clutches wear prematurely because of the high frequency of starts and stops. Which basically in my opinion means, that VW is selling cars where they are well aware that combination, engine and gearbox is not optimal. More precisely, in one specific case, VW is claiming that Passat EcoFuel DSG7 is not suitable for taxi behaviour. And VW is proposing their VW Touran with DSG7 as a better option for taxies.

But then, I own a Touran DSG7, that they are claiming is better then Passat, but as you can read here, I have plenty of problems with the gearbox or overall combination, TDI engine with DSG7 gearbox. So much for their expert opinion!

Maybe, it’s only VW Polo that this DSG7 (DQ200) gearbox is suitable for?

In my search for a solution, and research of the problem with my car, I came across lot of different car models (VW, SEAT, Škoda) with same problems. And one thing that is notable for me is, that very few Polo’s have this problem. All larger/heavier models, and more powerful engines have problems with this specific transmission (DQ200 – DSG7 with dry clutches). So I am tempted to conclude, that this gearbox seems to be too weak for anything that has more than 90 bhp (break horsepower). If it’s gearbox itself, or the clutches/flywheels that are problems, I am not sure. But one thing is, that they keep on selling a combination, that will cause problems for a buyer.

Last time, my car was serviced for DSG7 problems, was in August 2012, where VW refuse to do anything to the car, as they deemed it as working. Now, 5-6 months later, previous symptoms with gearbox/transmission are coming back again. I have lost all confidence in VW that they are willing to fix this.

Anyway, read the original article in Swedish here: http://www.teknikensvarld.se/2013/02/08/37996/volkswagens-dsg-skador-drabbar-alla/ 

Volkswagen Taiwan extends warranty on all cars with DSG7 gearboxes

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In short: Volkswagen Taiwan extends warranty period to 5 years and unlimited mileage, for all owners of VW cars with DSG7 gearbox.
Here is Google Translate, translation of the statement.

Taiwan market will be extended to the DSG gearbox warranty period from the existing four-year unlimited mileage five ‧ Taiwan market for cars equipped with the DSG gearbox software update initiative recall (Taipei, December 27, 2012) Volkswagen The Taiwanese distributor Taikoo Motors announced Biaoda, to enhance driving safety, Swire Pacific Standard Car production for March 2012 with a seven-speed DSG dual-clutch gearbox cars initiative recall, and software upgrades. At the same time, thanks to the support of the majority of consumers, Volkswagen and Swire marked up to the car and announced that the DSG gearbox for four years unlimited mileage warranty period is extended to five years with unlimited mileage, and self-licensable day start at. According to Volkswagen, under certain conditions, especially the outside temperature and humidity is high and after a long time in parking, a minority may be equipped with a seven-speed DSG dual-clutch gearbox cars boron crystallization or due to electronic failure, causing the vehicle to the road between losing momentum or lose part of the stall or fixed gear driving will stall indicator flashes, the situation of the road between the jitter and clutch power output, a small number of vehicles may not be able to continue driving. In order to improve traffic safety, to software upgrades for cars equipped with a seven-speed DSG dual-clutch gearbox Volkswagen the Taiwan distributor Swire standard Car initiative to take preventive measures to recall. Since March 2012, the Volkswagen factory and the the Swire Biaoda car had already taken the initiative for the seven-speed DSG dual-clutch gearbox free software upgrade service. Currently only a small number of owners of the car has not been back to the factory, Swire standard car will take the initiative to despatch of the letter notice not yet back to the factory owners. The necessary software free update time is about 30 minutes. If the owners have any questions please contact Volkswagen Free :0800 -068,068.

Link to original version in Chinese: http://www.volkswagen.tw/tw/zh/about_volkswagen/news_and_event/news_index/news20121227.html

 

UPDATE: in the complaint case, response from the dealership

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So, the authority I complained to regarding my vows with my VW and its DSG7 gearbox, finally got the dealership to respond to my complaints. And basically, they do not see it as their responsibility. Case is not done, and is now up to the authority to decide what should be next step in the process. Below, I’ve translated the response from the dealership. Not that there is anything useful said, but still. To give an indication, what I am up against. Declining all responsibilities because importer has been involved in the case. Internal policies are not concerns of mine, I bought the car from the dealership. They bought it from the importer. I am complaining about my car to dealership, they should to importer.

Here is the response from the dealership.

Company agrees with the information the consumer has indicated: No.
We did not consider it appropriate to comment on the case history that does not involve us, but we can confirm that we have sold the car to the consumer and made a warranty repair on the instructions of the manufacturer / importer of VW.

Company agrees with the user’s production of proceedings: No
We are not able to comment on a case history that does not involve us – but can confirm that we have carried out a warranty repair as directed by the manufacturer / importer of VW

The company is prepared to meet consumer demands: No
In our opinion, the VW importer with customer acceptance has intervened in this case and therefore we can not accept any responsibilities in this case and repairs not carried out by us.

 

Comment: VW Touran value loss comparison

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The other day, in my inbox I found a newsletter from Volkswagen Denmark, which I subscribe to, and theme is praising the VW cars for their used car values. They are praising mostly Golf, but also in general all Volkswagen cars. Analysis was made by an online car magazine in Danish and compare value loss of used cars across makes and over 4 year period.

In MPV class there is

  • VW Touran 1.6 TDI (Startline) with 44%
  • VW Touran 1.2 TSI (Startline) with 47%
  • VW Touran 1.4 TSI (Trendline) with 47%

…over period of 4 years and 80.000 km (20.000 km a year).

Let’s dig a bit deeper to analize the differences and common factors.

What is Startline?

Startline is VW package/option used (perhaps only) in Denmark as a way of lowering a cost of a car, as taxes in Denmark are highest in the world. Usually VW has Trendline, Comfortline and Highline as options/packages. But in Denmark, because of the taxes on cars, they are introducing Startline as low-end option and Match line, which is an a bridge between Comfortline and Highline options. So as one can concluded, models mentions in the analysis, are in the low-end of options.

Comparing these models with my car to understand value loss

My car is VW Touran 1.6 TDI with DSG7 (eg. automatic gearbox) and Highline option, plus extra packages that include, sport, winter, DK, Teknik, Mirror and Light packages, Black (deep Perle effect) color. My car’s price tag is at least 27% more than the one TDI in the analysis. At the time latest offer was made, it had driven 38.000 km (currently 45.000 km). And it is 2 years and a week old. So my car in 2 years lost 35%. The one in the analysis lost 44% over 4 years. Mileage is about the same, so this is actually pretty easy to compare. If I am to believe the value of my car in 2 years is -35% then in 4 years it should be -70%. Which means, I couldn’t even trade my car in for a VW Up! by the time it reaches 4 years.

Highline package has probably 4 times the equipment the Startline has. And Startline lost 44% in value. Logic would dictate that Highline, with extra equipment, would keep the value a bit better. But let’s say that it does not, and that we should just use math and calculate value loss by dividing the time the car has been used. My would be rated at 22%. This gives a difference of 13% from what it was rated. So 50% difference in the rating of my car.

Another thing is, (which would be funny if I wasn’t to be at loss of €15.000) that this is rating (-22%) I was given before I let the dealership know that I still have problems with my DSG7. So now, I am pretty sure that somebody is trying to screw me and that my calculations and reservations about the latest rating are correct. They are most probably calculating the cost of the gearbox replacement as something I should pay for. While they are trying to convince me that there is nothing wrong with my gearbox.

Comment: Serial Production Standard

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I wanted to comment on few things regarding Volkswagen’s conclusion on my problems with DSG7 gearbox.

After replacing a DSG7 gearbox, flywheel, dual clutches (twice), mechatronic (reset twice and replacement once) the car/gearbox is still making grinding noise and shuddering/juddering and having uneven acceleration on periodical basis.
They (VW) concluded that this is “Serial Production Standard”.

What does this Serial Production Standard means?

Well in my mind, this means that the car is behaving within normal parameters of operation they are expecting to see. Which in turn means, they can acknowledge  my complaints, but they are not going to do anything about it, as they mean I should live with it.

There are few things, in their conclusion, I don’t agree with;

  • First of all, their Serial Production Standards might be set too low, as no car I have driven so far, has done this. If Volkswagen is expecting customers to live with faulty hardware they paid premium for, they really need a reality check. I am not accepting anything less than what I paid for, as I have my own standards what should a car make and not make of noises. I am probably not alone in this, either. Metallic grinding noises are not standard in any mechanical device. This is either considered as a sign of poor hardware design or worn parts. Grinding is always considered sign for premature ware of the hardware and cause for concern. And this is to be expected in moving parts, even when lubricated. But, it is not supposed to ware after only 5.000 km. This is not a standard and can’t be a standard for few reasons.
    1. When I bought the car, it did not make this noise, nor did it shake my kidney stones. Ergo, can not be a standard, as it was not there the whole time, but something that car started to make/do afterwards.
    2. Car was manufactured wrongly, and it fixed itself while I was driving it? Bought a car no noise no juddering.

When they replaced flywheel, noise and shaking disappeared. But, it came back again after some time, so this makes me think replacing flywheel is not the permanent solution. But it might have solved it temporarily. So, to claim that this is standard noise, is just rubbish and trying to avoid real cause of the problem. I might conclude following if I am to believe their conclusion.

  • Noise and juddering, disappeared after a visit to their shop, it might be they installed fly-wheel incorrectly. As it took a whole year before it started to make the “standard” noises and shake again. Either they destroyed something while replacing flywheel in the car, and then the car used a year to fix itself, or there is real problem that should not be ignored. But, who knows?! Maybe that’s why we (VW owners) pay premium. VW cars can fix themself. Now, that’s what I call getting good value for the money. (Be aware of irony)
  • Also, their conclusion does not explain for why some cars have this problem, while others don’t. Across the makes even, but all owned by VAG (Volkswagen AG). I’ve seen reports from owners of Skoda, SEAT and VW; all with the same DSG7 gearbox and with exact the same problems across the world. In Denmark, in one poll, this was approximately 20% of owners that had problems with their DSG7 gearbox. It is not specified what kind of problems. I am not saying poll results as absolute results and can’t be wrong, but it does make me wonder why did 20% had problems. There may even be more than 20%, but are not aware of the noise or they haven’t reached the “ware”-threshold for when the problem is noticeable. Or even that they are waiting for a warning “light” turn on before they take action.

Another thing…

I can live with the noise, but I just want to be assured that this is not premature ware, as I am suspecting it to be. And reports/letters from VW officials in China, Russia, Malaysia and USA are not assuring me in this. They are extending warranty on all DSG7 gearboxes to 10 years or 150-160.000 km. Reasoning being, “no permanent fix for the problem exist”, so to assure owners in the product they are extending warranty. Guess what, if it’s the same gearbox and same problems worldwide, why keep it isolated only to few countries, when this gearbox is sold worldwide? Economical reasons, probably.

Value loss

All this amounts to not being happy with the way car is behaving and I am expecting it to behave.
When I went to dealership where I bought and serviced the car to trade it in for another car. Same make and model, only younger (in hope that this one is not going to behave like the first one). I was given an estimate of losing 35-40% of cars value. Car, at that point was, 17 months old, and had 42.000 km on the clock, in mint condition. My car is a TDI (1.6) Highline model with DSG7 with all kind of extras for at least €15.000. And yet, I am losing 35-40% of its value. Why?

Dealership have in their used-cars department a Comfort and Trendline models, same age, with manual transmission and about 15.000 km less on the clock then mine, and they are selling them for more than what they estimated my car value is. I understand they need to earn some money on the resale of the car, but 35% is a bit too much of the value loss, especially if Volkswagen AG is saying there is nothing wrong with the car.

For comparation take a look at this…

  • Comfortline (manual) : NEW = 370.000 DKK vs. USED = 309.000 DKK (– 16%)
  • My Highline (aut. DSG7) : NEW = 475.000 DKK vs. USED/ESTIMATED = 300.000 DKK (-35%)

Alone the difference in DSG7 vs. manual should give at least 45.000 DKK more in value for my car, not even taking into account that the car has;

  • park assist,
  • light assist,
  • cabin warmer, (with remote)
  • mirror package,
  • winter package,
  • sport package,
  • 17″ Oakland wheels.

 

Called my Service Partner today

After waiting for more than 7 business days, and no contact by them,  I decided to call them.

So I call them, and they are waiting for a “reference” car. Which means, a car that has same specs and similar mileage as mine. This, I was told a year ago as well. Their plan is, find this reference car and check if it is making the same noise and behaviour as mine does. If it does, they will see what they can do. If it does not, then I have no merit in my complaints. That’s what they are planing and saying.

I told them about this reference car, that I was promised last year, and was “never found”. What would make it any different this time? They assured me that they are good in finding stuff like this. Well, I guess we will see. A bit less than a month left on my warranty.

All this, to me, sounds like dragging feet, until my warranty expires. I hope I am wrong, but they haven’t heard last from me just yet.

At the same time I informed them about my research from here, they claim that they never heard about China, Russia, USA extending warranties and complaints on other models with DSG7 gearbox around the world. So I sent them links to the documents. If in China more than 1 million DSG7 units are sold and they all got extended warranty, hard to believe there were no internal memos sent throughout VW concern. But I guess 1 million (probably) faulty units are not cause for concern in VW.