Tag: VW

VW: DSG7 is not suitable for TAXI behaviour

While I am waiting for the verdict of my complaint to danish authority for car complaints, I have discovered an article from Teknikens Värld (Swedish car mag). This article is rising an important point in the defective DSG7 gearboxes from VW.

Some taxi companies in Sweden, have been advised, by VW, not to buy models with DSG7 gearboxes. As they are not suitable for this behaviour, again, according to VW. As the gearbox and its clutches wear prematurely because of the high frequency of starts and stops. Which basically in my opinion means, that VW is selling cars where they are well aware that combination, engine and gearbox is not optimal. More precisely, in one specific case, VW is claiming that Passat EcoFuel DSG7 is not suitable for taxi behaviour. And VW is proposing their VW Touran with DSG7 as a better option for taxies.

But then, I own a Touran DSG7, that they are claiming is better then Passat, but as you can read here, I have plenty of problems with the gearbox or overall combination, TDI engine with DSG7 gearbox. So much for their expert opinion!

Maybe, it’s only VW Polo that this DSG7 (DQ200) gearbox is suitable for?

In my search for a solution, and research of the problem with my car, I came across lot of different car models (VW, SEAT, Škoda) with same problems. And one thing that is notable for me is, that very few Polo’s have this problem. All larger/heavier models, and more powerful engines have problems with this specific transmission (DQ200 – DSG7 with dry clutches). So I am tempted to conclude, that this gearbox seems to be too weak for anything that has more than 90 bhp (break horsepower). If it’s gearbox itself, or the clutches/flywheels that are problems, I am not sure. But one thing is, that they keep on selling a combination, that will cause problems for a buyer.

Last time, my car was serviced for DSG7 problems, was in August 2012, where VW refuse to do anything to the car, as they deemed it as working. Now, 5-6 months later, previous symptoms with gearbox/transmission are coming back again. I have lost all confidence in VW that they are willing to fix this.

Anyway, read the original article in Swedish here: http://www.teknikensvarld.se/2013/02/08/37996/volkswagens-dsg-skador-drabbar-alla/ 

Evidence against theory of “Serial Production Standard” …

Last time I spoke to my VW Service Partner and VW Importer for Denmark, they wanted to find a reference car to see if this car has the same noise, and if it behaves the same way as mine does. I guess they are hoping to prove to me, that this car/model is supposed to do this. As they keep on telling me, that this is normal behavior for this make and model. And they need exact car as mine, to use it as reference point. I tried to argue and reason with them, in regard, that I could find evidence of others having same problems, on different makes and models. But it felt to deaf ears.

Here I will try to prove that this has nothing to do with the car/model or make but that it has to do with DSG7 design, which is most probably, flawed by design. And this is not going to be that hard, as this is easy to prove by simple search on the internet. So their reasoning, is, this is “serial production standard”. I wrote about this in my last post, here.

If this is Serial Production Standard for my car;

  • why is this happening to other models and makes;
  • why this did not happened from the start;
  • when they replaced the flywheel on my car, problem disappeared for about 18.000 km and then it came back, why.

No answers to these questions.

Let’s have a look on what models I have been able to find same complaints from their owners.

  • AUDI
    • A1 (1)
  • SKODA
    • Fabia (1) (2)
  • SEAT
    • Ibiza (1)
  • VW
    • Touran (1)
    • Scirocco (1)
    • Golf (1) (2) (3) (4)
    • Jetta (1)

This makes it easy for me to logically conclude that my car/model is not alone in this so-called, “Serial Production Standard”, and trying to prove it by finding a reference car that has the same configuration as mine is not going to prove anything. This is again, most probably an attempt to extend their time in which they have to figure out what to do, or how to reply to my inquiries, and waste mine.

Thread (in Danish) about problems with DSG7, on one of the big names in online used cars websites of cars in Denmark  Link: http://www.bilbasen.dk/forum/generelt/erfaring-med-automatikdsg/23512

On a Danish website, for owners of all Volkswagen AG (VAG) cars, are gathered and discuss all aspects of their cars, there is a poll about problems in general with DSG (6 and 7), and result is showing it clearly. Poll and discussion: http://www.vagcars.dk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=60305

Results as of writing this are, 110 people answered the poll, 68 (62%) did not have problems and 38% did have problems. Out of these there are 21 with DSG7 gearboxes. Of those, 10 (48%) had problems, while 11 (52%) did not have problems. I know, this poll is not scientific in any way, but that’s what it shows. 

UPDATE: in the complaint case, response from the dealership

So, the authority I complained to regarding my vows with my VW and its DSG7 gearbox, finally got the dealership to respond to my complaints. And basically, they do not see it as their responsibility. Case is not done, and is now up to the authority to decide what should be next step in the process. Below, I’ve translated the response from the dealership. Not that there is anything useful said, but still. To give an indication, what I am up against. Declining all responsibilities because importer has been involved in the case. Internal policies are not concerns of mine, I bought the car from the dealership. They bought it from the importer. I am complaining about my car to dealership, they should to importer.

Here is the response from the dealership.

Company agrees with the information the consumer has indicated: No.
We did not consider it appropriate to comment on the case history that does not involve us, but we can confirm that we have sold the car to the consumer and made a warranty repair on the instructions of the manufacturer / importer of VW.

Company agrees with the user’s production of proceedings: No
We are not able to comment on a case history that does not involve us – but can confirm that we have carried out a warranty repair as directed by the manufacturer / importer of VW

The company is prepared to meet consumer demands: No
In our opinion, the VW importer with customer acceptance has intervened in this case and therefore we can not accept any responsibilities in this case and repairs not carried out by us.

 

Comment: VW Touran value loss comparison

The other day, in my inbox I found a newsletter from Volkswagen Denmark, which I subscribe to, and theme is praising the VW cars for their used car values. They are praising mostly Golf, but also in general all Volkswagen cars. Analysis was made by an online car magazine in Danish and compare value loss of used cars across makes and over 4 year period.

In MPV class there is

  • VW Touran 1.6 TDI (Startline) with 44%
  • VW Touran 1.2 TSI (Startline) with 47%
  • VW Touran 1.4 TSI (Trendline) with 47%

…over period of 4 years and 80.000 km (20.000 km a year).

Let’s dig a bit deeper to analize the differences and common factors.

What is Startline?

Startline is VW package/option used (perhaps only) in Denmark as a way of lowering a cost of a car, as taxes in Denmark are highest in the world. Usually VW has Trendline, Comfortline and Highline as options/packages. But in Denmark, because of the taxes on cars, they are introducing Startline as low-end option and Match line, which is an a bridge between Comfortline and Highline options. So as one can concluded, models mentions in the analysis, are in the low-end of options.

Comparing these models with my car to understand value loss

My car is VW Touran 1.6 TDI with DSG7 (eg. automatic gearbox) and Highline option, plus extra packages that include, sport, winter, DK, Teknik, Mirror and Light packages, Black (deep Perle effect) color. My car’s price tag is at least 27% more than the one TDI in the analysis. At the time latest offer was made, it had driven 38.000 km (currently 45.000 km). And it is 2 years and a week old. So my car in 2 years lost 35%. The one in the analysis lost 44% over 4 years. Mileage is about the same, so this is actually pretty easy to compare. If I am to believe the value of my car in 2 years is -35% then in 4 years it should be -70%. Which means, I couldn’t even trade my car in for a VW Up! by the time it reaches 4 years.

Highline package has probably 4 times the equipment the Startline has. And Startline lost 44% in value. Logic would dictate that Highline, with extra equipment, would keep the value a bit better. But let’s say that it does not, and that we should just use math and calculate value loss by dividing the time the car has been used. My would be rated at 22%. This gives a difference of 13% from what it was rated. So 50% difference in the rating of my car.

Another thing is, (which would be funny if I wasn’t to be at loss of €15.000) that this is rating (-22%) I was given before I let the dealership know that I still have problems with my DSG7. So now, I am pretty sure that somebody is trying to screw me and that my calculations and reservations about the latest rating are correct. They are most probably calculating the cost of the gearbox replacement as something I should pay for. While they are trying to convince me that there is nothing wrong with my gearbox.

Sent yet another mail

Just sent yet another mail, asking for updates.
Last time I spoke to them on the phone, they told me, that they are not going to do anything unless they can find this “reference car” that matches my model. Deadline for this was on November 9th, but they extended it indefinitely. Wanted to know if I am waiting for this car till kingdom come or what?

UPDATE: Got the reply. They are doing nothing, as result of my complaint to Authority for car complaints (or whatever it is called in English :-)) …
Which is understandable. But I would still prefer, VW tried to fix this, instead of waiting for some bodies conclusion on, whether they should have sold me the car or not.

So for now, there is nothing but to wait…

Created an official complaint with bilklage.dk

As agreed last time I spoke to the Service Partner, where they are looking to find a reference car to compare it to mine. No news yet and they are not going to do anything before they can find this reference car.

While we are waiting, I have finally decided to file a complaint to Danish officials. So we will see what comes out of this.

Comment: Serial Production Standard

I wanted to comment on few things regarding Volkswagen’s conclusion on my problems with DSG7 gearbox.

After replacing a DSG7 gearbox, flywheel, dual clutches (twice), mechatronic (reset twice and replacement once) the car/gearbox is still making grinding noise and shuddering/juddering and having uneven acceleration on periodical basis.
They (VW) concluded that this is “Serial Production Standard”.

What does this Serial Production Standard means?

Well in my mind, this means that the car is behaving within normal parameters of operation they are expecting to see. Which in turn means, they can acknowledge  my complaints, but they are not going to do anything about it, as they mean I should live with it.

There are few things, in their conclusion, I don’t agree with;

  • First of all, their Serial Production Standards might be set too low, as no car I have driven so far, has done this. If Volkswagen is expecting customers to live with faulty hardware they paid premium for, they really need a reality check. I am not accepting anything less than what I paid for, as I have my own standards what should a car make and not make of noises. I am probably not alone in this, either. Metallic grinding noises are not standard in any mechanical device. This is either considered as a sign of poor hardware design or worn parts. Grinding is always considered sign for premature ware of the hardware and cause for concern. And this is to be expected in moving parts, even when lubricated. But, it is not supposed to ware after only 5.000 km. This is not a standard and can’t be a standard for few reasons.
    1. When I bought the car, it did not make this noise, nor did it shake my kidney stones. Ergo, can not be a standard, as it was not there the whole time, but something that car started to make/do afterwards.
    2. Car was manufactured wrongly, and it fixed itself while I was driving it? Bought a car no noise no juddering.

When they replaced flywheel, noise and shaking disappeared. But, it came back again after some time, so this makes me think replacing flywheel is not the permanent solution. But it might have solved it temporarily. So, to claim that this is standard noise, is just rubbish and trying to avoid real cause of the problem. I might conclude following if I am to believe their conclusion.

  • Noise and juddering, disappeared after a visit to their shop, it might be they installed fly-wheel incorrectly. As it took a whole year before it started to make the “standard” noises and shake again. Either they destroyed something while replacing flywheel in the car, and then the car used a year to fix itself, or there is real problem that should not be ignored. But, who knows?! Maybe that’s why we (VW owners) pay premium. VW cars can fix themself. Now, that’s what I call getting good value for the money. (Be aware of irony)
  • Also, their conclusion does not explain for why some cars have this problem, while others don’t. Across the makes even, but all owned by VAG (Volkswagen AG). I’ve seen reports from owners of Skoda, SEAT and VW; all with the same DSG7 gearbox and with exact the same problems across the world. In Denmark, in one poll, this was approximately 20% of owners that had problems with their DSG7 gearbox. It is not specified what kind of problems. I am not saying poll results as absolute results and can’t be wrong, but it does make me wonder why did 20% had problems. There may even be more than 20%, but are not aware of the noise or they haven’t reached the “ware”-threshold for when the problem is noticeable. Or even that they are waiting for a warning “light” turn on before they take action.

Another thing…

I can live with the noise, but I just want to be assured that this is not premature ware, as I am suspecting it to be. And reports/letters from VW officials in China, Russia, Malaysia and USA are not assuring me in this. They are extending warranty on all DSG7 gearboxes to 10 years or 150-160.000 km. Reasoning being, “no permanent fix for the problem exist”, so to assure owners in the product they are extending warranty. Guess what, if it’s the same gearbox and same problems worldwide, why keep it isolated only to few countries, when this gearbox is sold worldwide? Economical reasons, probably.

Value loss

All this amounts to not being happy with the way car is behaving and I am expecting it to behave.
When I went to dealership where I bought and serviced the car to trade it in for another car. Same make and model, only younger (in hope that this one is not going to behave like the first one). I was given an estimate of losing 35-40% of cars value. Car, at that point was, 17 months old, and had 42.000 km on the clock, in mint condition. My car is a TDI (1.6) Highline model with DSG7 with all kind of extras for at least €15.000. And yet, I am losing 35-40% of its value. Why?

Dealership have in their used-cars department a Comfort and Trendline models, same age, with manual transmission and about 15.000 km less on the clock then mine, and they are selling them for more than what they estimated my car value is. I understand they need to earn some money on the resale of the car, but 35% is a bit too much of the value loss, especially if Volkswagen AG is saying there is nothing wrong with the car.

For comparation take a look at this…

  • Comfortline (manual) : NEW = 370.000 DKK vs. USED = 309.000 DKK (– 16%)
  • My Highline (aut. DSG7) : NEW = 475.000 DKK vs. USED/ESTIMATED = 300.000 DKK (-35%)

Alone the difference in DSG7 vs. manual should give at least 45.000 DKK more in value for my car, not even taking into account that the car has;

  • park assist,
  • light assist,
  • cabin warmer, (with remote)
  • mirror package,
  • winter package,
  • sport package,
  • 17″ Oakland wheels.

 

Called my Service Partner today

After waiting for more than 7 business days, and no contact by them,  I decided to call them.

So I call them, and they are waiting for a “reference” car. Which means, a car that has same specs and similar mileage as mine. This, I was told a year ago as well. Their plan is, find this reference car and check if it is making the same noise and behaviour as mine does. If it does, they will see what they can do. If it does not, then I have no merit in my complaints. That’s what they are planing and saying.

I told them about this reference car, that I was promised last year, and was “never found”. What would make it any different this time? They assured me that they are good in finding stuff like this. Well, I guess we will see. A bit less than a month left on my warranty.

All this, to me, sounds like dragging feet, until my warranty expires. I hope I am wrong, but they haven’t heard last from me just yet.

At the same time I informed them about my research from here, they claim that they never heard about China, Russia, USA extending warranties and complaints on other models with DSG7 gearbox around the world. So I sent them links to the documents. If in China more than 1 million DSG7 units are sold and they all got extended warranty, hard to believe there were no internal memos sent throughout VW concern. But I guess 1 million (probably) faulty units are not cause for concern in VW.

Bulletin TPI2026097

Found this piece of information on TPI2026096 bulletin, that I was looking for few days ago. It suggests complete opposite what VW Denmark have told me. This tells me that they are either not aware of this or that they are willingly trying to hide the problem.

This also tells that there is an issue, and that they cannot fix it at present, as they obviously don’t know what is wrong or causing the problem. But there is a problem, that is most important to me. This supports also those reports I already found online. Regarding China, Russia, India, Malaysia regarding extended/prolonged warranties for customers with DSG7 gearbox. Customers in China and Russia have received official apology letters, but in Europe they are hiding it from the customers.

Bulletin 2026097/1 issued 25.08.11. Transmission – Vibrations, jerking and clattering when changing 1 – 2 while accelerating.
1.4TSi / 7Spd DSG.

Customer’s remarks:
Juddering/Clattering in 2nd gear for 2 seconds accelerating through 5 – 10kph or when changing 1st to 2nd at low speed or when reversing.
Occurs once the car has warmed up.

Reason: 
Drop of friction value of multiple clutch.

Current situation:
Currently no effective repair possible. Repalcing the multiple clutch does does not effectively fix the complaint. There is no parts damage. Working on a solution.

Complaint not caused by the two-mass flywheel.

Postpone repairs until a solution is available.

Read more about problems in Australia as well. There are 43 pages on the topic on an Australian discussion forum, many users are reporting the same issue I have with my VW Touran. And yet, VW is telling me it’s completely normal. They need reality check! Normal is “smooth operation”, not having car in the shop, for 11% of the time. I did not buy a car to have it spend time in the shop.

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f112/golf-7-speed-dsg-shudder-clutch-issues-45873.html