Tag: Volkswagen

VW in China recalls imported cars as well

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Some more news from China, about DSG7 (DQ200) gearboxes. VW in China is issuing recall on imported cars as well. That is, VW cars with DSG7, not manufactured in China. Which was the fundamental excuse for Volkswagen’s claim for not recognising the same problem in the rest of the world. Even thou symptoms and problems are 100% identical to those in China. Volkswagen, so far, is still refusing to acknowledge existence of the problem in Europe and elsewhere.

With this latest recall, one could conclude following;

  • VW is well aware of the issue with their DQ200 gearboxes and is trying to hide the extend of the problem.
  • All DQ200 gearboxes are manufactured in China, contrary to what VW wants us to believe.

To recap, for less informed readers on recall

Across Europe and world as well, VW is claiming that only Chinese manufactured gearboxes are defective and therefore, no other markets are affected by this problem with their DSG7 (DQ200) gearboxes. But this new recall, that is actually recalling imported cars (non-Chinese manufactured) with DSG7. Which throws out of the window VW theories/reasons for defective gearboxes. On all continents there are customers with DSG7 gearboxes, with same problems. Only difference there is, how Volkswagen is “forced” to react. Everything else about this problem is actually identical.

  • Power loss
  • Slipping clutches
  • Noise

Read the original article :: http://english.cri.cn/6826/2013/07/04/2702s773954.htm

VW Denmark is not budging in DSG7 problems

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In the last few months, some major media, here in Denmark, reported on DSG7 problems, and had interviews with PR-reps from VW Denmark. VW Denmark is not budging in DSG7 problems. Journalists were mostly asking same questions, and getting the same answers. Or, perhaps VW Denmark only answered on selected questions.

But, common theme in the articles were mostly asking, if VW thinks they have general problems with DSG7 transmission (internally known as DQ200). They of course answered with “no”. Volkswagen is claiming that they know about very few cases with problems, and that these were taken care of, either under warranty or ex-gratia, where consumers were asked to pay a part of the repair.

Another common theme in the VW answers were, indirect blame of the consumer for the problems. Declining to acknowledge the problems and responsibility, VW is automatically blaming consumer for the problems. They even used numbers to deflect the blame, and informed  journalists they sold 8.500 cars with DSG7 transmission, out of those VW claimed “only” 311 had problems. This is a 3,66% error margin, if we are just to take look at their numbers. Which I am not completely confident that the numbers are true. Even if the numbers are true, there is a question about what models it was sold with.

There are some models and engines more suitable for DSG7 specifications, and others are less suitable. Eg. engine torque, and the size/weight of the car.

An example to illustrate the issue

Another example of this (bad engine combinations) could be following;

DSG7 is rated at max. output of 250 Nm of torque.

  • Polo 1.2 TSI 90-105 BHP has about 160 – 175 Nm of torque
  • Touran 1.6 TDI with 105 BHP has 250 Nm of torque.

As you can see… Touran with TDI engines is riding on the limits of the DSG7 gearbox specifications. And this is only asking for troubles. That VW went anyway with this combination of engine and gearbox is beyond my understanding.

And consumers are to be blamed and pay for their design/manufacturing flaws?

So, now if I could only get VW of publicising the numbers of sold Polo’s and other models well within limitations of the DSG7 gearbox, and deduct that number from those 8.500, I am pretty sure error rate will be a lot higher, than 3.66%.

DSG7 failure – Numbers do not add up…

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We have new information about problems with DSG7 gearbox.

According to figures from VW DK, there are about sold 8.500 cars with DSG7 in Denmark. And only 311 of them would have had problems with the gearbox. It is about 3.7% of cars with DSG7 …
We do not know what the overall margin of error is on the cars, but 3.7% may not sound like much … Or?

At the same time when you read articles from the German DSG7 problems, they also have “several hundred cars” …
The same “numbers” found in the article linked to below.

If one were to stick to statistics, so Germany should have a greater share of problems, since there are more who bought the car with DSG7. But funny enough, the figure is more or less “the same” as in Denmark.

At the same time, there will be in this article from Jylland-Posten (http://epn.dk/privat/biler/ECE5429249/vw-kunder-klager-over-gearkasse/), said of the VW DK, the number of customers in Germany the problem is more significant.Reasoned, with the Danish tax and other geography, and higher speeds and longer distance driven.

So, who is creative with numbers here? Who are they trying to mislead? The Germans or the Danes?
And who buys these explanations?

When one thinks of “several hundred” what figure do they have in mind?
We would say about 200-300 …

In Sweden, VW deprecated Taxi companies in buying cars with DSG7 as there are too many start-stop situations. As a means to DSG7 obviously not suitable for short trips.
In Germany it is too long trips, too many hills. In Sweden, too short trips. In Denmark it is too little hills and low speeds, maybe even danish tax system, which evidently is causing the problem?

Many unanswered questions … Maybe it is the journalists who ask the right questions of the critical nature.

Volkswagen China to “voluntarily” recall cars with DSG

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Volkswagen has been and will continue to actively cooperate with the competent authorities. Volkswagen will launch a voluntary recall for DSG issues. Details in regards to the recall, Volkswagen will be announced in the near future.

Original Link from VW China :: http://www.vw.com.cn/en/corporate_information1/news/NewsIndex.suffix.html/News2013~2FNews_2013_6.html

More on a subject of defective DSG gearboxes in China :: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/motoring/2013-03/16/content_16313553.htm and http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/motoring/2013-03/18/content_16317719.htm

VW: DSG7 is not suitable for TAXI behaviour

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While I am waiting for the verdict of my complaint to danish authority for car complaints, I have discovered an article from Teknikens Värld (Swedish car mag). This article is rising an important point in the defective DSG7 gearboxes from VW.

Some taxi companies in Sweden, have been advised, by VW, not to buy models with DSG7 gearboxes. As they are not suitable for this behaviour, again, according to VW. As the gearbox and its clutches wear prematurely because of the high frequency of starts and stops. Which basically in my opinion means, that VW is selling cars where they are well aware that combination, engine and gearbox is not optimal. More precisely, in one specific case, VW is claiming that Passat EcoFuel DSG7 is not suitable for taxi behaviour. And VW is proposing their VW Touran with DSG7 as a better option for taxies.

But then, I own a Touran DSG7, that they are claiming is better then Passat, but as you can read here, I have plenty of problems with the gearbox or overall combination, TDI engine with DSG7 gearbox. So much for their expert opinion!

Maybe, it’s only VW Polo that this DSG7 (DQ200) gearbox is suitable for?

In my search for a solution, and research of the problem with my car, I came across lot of different car models (VW, SEAT, Škoda) with same problems. And one thing that is notable for me is, that very few Polo’s have this problem. All larger/heavier models, and more powerful engines have problems with this specific transmission (DQ200 – DSG7 with dry clutches). So I am tempted to conclude, that this gearbox seems to be too weak for anything that has more than 90 bhp (break horsepower). If it’s gearbox itself, or the clutches/flywheels that are problems, I am not sure. But one thing is, that they keep on selling a combination, that will cause problems for a buyer.

Last time, my car was serviced for DSG7 problems, was in August 2012, where VW refuse to do anything to the car, as they deemed it as working. Now, 5-6 months later, previous symptoms with gearbox/transmission are coming back again. I have lost all confidence in VW that they are willing to fix this.

Anyway, read the original article in Swedish here: http://www.teknikensvarld.se/2013/02/08/37996/volkswagens-dsg-skador-drabbar-alla/ 

UPDATE: in the complaint case, response from the dealership

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So, the authority I complained to regarding my vows with my VW and its DSG7 gearbox, finally got the dealership to respond to my complaints. And basically, they do not see it as their responsibility. Case is not done, and is now up to the authority to decide what should be next step in the process. Below, I’ve translated the response from the dealership. Not that there is anything useful said, but still. To give an indication, what I am up against. Declining all responsibilities because importer has been involved in the case. Internal policies are not concerns of mine, I bought the car from the dealership. They bought it from the importer. I am complaining about my car to dealership, they should to importer.

Here is the response from the dealership.

Company agrees with the information the consumer has indicated: No.
We did not consider it appropriate to comment on the case history that does not involve us, but we can confirm that we have sold the car to the consumer and made a warranty repair on the instructions of the manufacturer / importer of VW.

Company agrees with the user’s production of proceedings: No
We are not able to comment on a case history that does not involve us – but can confirm that we have carried out a warranty repair as directed by the manufacturer / importer of VW

The company is prepared to meet consumer demands: No
In our opinion, the VW importer with customer acceptance has intervened in this case and therefore we can not accept any responsibilities in this case and repairs not carried out by us.

 

Comment: VW Touran value loss comparison

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The other day, in my inbox I found a newsletter from Volkswagen Denmark, which I subscribe to, and theme is praising the VW cars for their used car values. They are praising mostly Golf, but also in general all Volkswagen cars. Analysis was made by an online car magazine in Danish and compare value loss of used cars across makes and over 4 year period.

In MPV class there is

  • VW Touran 1.6 TDI (Startline) with 44%
  • VW Touran 1.2 TSI (Startline) with 47%
  • VW Touran 1.4 TSI (Trendline) with 47%

…over period of 4 years and 80.000 km (20.000 km a year).

Let’s dig a bit deeper to analize the differences and common factors.

What is Startline?

Startline is VW package/option used (perhaps only) in Denmark as a way of lowering a cost of a car, as taxes in Denmark are highest in the world. Usually VW has Trendline, Comfortline and Highline as options/packages. But in Denmark, because of the taxes on cars, they are introducing Startline as low-end option and Match line, which is an a bridge between Comfortline and Highline options. So as one can concluded, models mentions in the analysis, are in the low-end of options.

Comparing these models with my car to understand value loss

My car is VW Touran 1.6 TDI with DSG7 (eg. automatic gearbox) and Highline option, plus extra packages that include, sport, winter, DK, Teknik, Mirror and Light packages, Black (deep Perle effect) color. My car’s price tag is at least 27% more than the one TDI in the analysis. At the time latest offer was made, it had driven 38.000 km (currently 45.000 km). And it is 2 years and a week old. So my car in 2 years lost 35%. The one in the analysis lost 44% over 4 years. Mileage is about the same, so this is actually pretty easy to compare. If I am to believe the value of my car in 2 years is -35% then in 4 years it should be -70%. Which means, I couldn’t even trade my car in for a VW Up! by the time it reaches 4 years.

Highline package has probably 4 times the equipment the Startline has. And Startline lost 44% in value. Logic would dictate that Highline, with extra equipment, would keep the value a bit better. But let’s say that it does not, and that we should just use math and calculate value loss by dividing the time the car has been used. My would be rated at 22%. This gives a difference of 13% from what it was rated. So 50% difference in the rating of my car.

Another thing is, (which would be funny if I wasn’t to be at loss of €15.000) that this is rating (-22%) I was given before I let the dealership know that I still have problems with my DSG7. So now, I am pretty sure that somebody is trying to screw me and that my calculations and reservations about the latest rating are correct. They are most probably calculating the cost of the gearbox replacement as something I should pay for. While they are trying to convince me that there is nothing wrong with my gearbox.

Sent yet another mail

Just sent yet another mail, asking for updates.
Last time I spoke to them on the phone, they told me, that they are not going to do anything unless they can find this “reference car” that matches my model. Deadline for this was on November 9th, but they extended it indefinitely. Wanted to know if I am waiting for this car till kingdom come or what?

UPDATE: Got the reply. They are doing nothing, as result of my complaint to Authority for car complaints (or whatever it is called in English :-)) …
Which is understandable. But I would still prefer, VW tried to fix this, instead of waiting for some bodies conclusion on, whether they should have sold me the car or not.

So for now, there is nothing but to wait…

Comment: Serial Production Standard

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I wanted to comment on few things regarding Volkswagen’s conclusion on my problems with DSG7 gearbox.

After replacing a DSG7 gearbox, flywheel, dual clutches (twice), mechatronic (reset twice and replacement once) the car/gearbox is still making grinding noise and shuddering/juddering and having uneven acceleration on periodical basis.
They (VW) concluded that this is “Serial Production Standard”.

What does this Serial Production Standard means?

Well in my mind, this means that the car is behaving within normal parameters of operation they are expecting to see. Which in turn means, they can acknowledge  my complaints, but they are not going to do anything about it, as they mean I should live with it.

There are few things, in their conclusion, I don’t agree with;

  • First of all, their Serial Production Standards might be set too low, as no car I have driven so far, has done this. If Volkswagen is expecting customers to live with faulty hardware they paid premium for, they really need a reality check. I am not accepting anything less than what I paid for, as I have my own standards what should a car make and not make of noises. I am probably not alone in this, either. Metallic grinding noises are not standard in any mechanical device. This is either considered as a sign of poor hardware design or worn parts. Grinding is always considered sign for premature ware of the hardware and cause for concern. And this is to be expected in moving parts, even when lubricated. But, it is not supposed to ware after only 5.000 km. This is not a standard and can’t be a standard for few reasons.
    1. When I bought the car, it did not make this noise, nor did it shake my kidney stones. Ergo, can not be a standard, as it was not there the whole time, but something that car started to make/do afterwards.
    2. Car was manufactured wrongly, and it fixed itself while I was driving it? Bought a car no noise no juddering.

When they replaced flywheel, noise and shaking disappeared. But, it came back again after some time, so this makes me think replacing flywheel is not the permanent solution. But it might have solved it temporarily. So, to claim that this is standard noise, is just rubbish and trying to avoid real cause of the problem. I might conclude following if I am to believe their conclusion.

  • Noise and juddering, disappeared after a visit to their shop, it might be they installed fly-wheel incorrectly. As it took a whole year before it started to make the “standard” noises and shake again. Either they destroyed something while replacing flywheel in the car, and then the car used a year to fix itself, or there is real problem that should not be ignored. But, who knows?! Maybe that’s why we (VW owners) pay premium. VW cars can fix themself. Now, that’s what I call getting good value for the money. (Be aware of irony)
  • Also, their conclusion does not explain for why some cars have this problem, while others don’t. Across the makes even, but all owned by VAG (Volkswagen AG). I’ve seen reports from owners of Skoda, SEAT and VW; all with the same DSG7 gearbox and with exact the same problems across the world. In Denmark, in one poll, this was approximately 20% of owners that had problems with their DSG7 gearbox. It is not specified what kind of problems. I am not saying poll results as absolute results and can’t be wrong, but it does make me wonder why did 20% had problems. There may even be more than 20%, but are not aware of the noise or they haven’t reached the “ware”-threshold for when the problem is noticeable. Or even that they are waiting for a warning “light” turn on before they take action.

Another thing…

I can live with the noise, but I just want to be assured that this is not premature ware, as I am suspecting it to be. And reports/letters from VW officials in China, Russia, Malaysia and USA are not assuring me in this. They are extending warranty on all DSG7 gearboxes to 10 years or 150-160.000 km. Reasoning being, “no permanent fix for the problem exist”, so to assure owners in the product they are extending warranty. Guess what, if it’s the same gearbox and same problems worldwide, why keep it isolated only to few countries, when this gearbox is sold worldwide? Economical reasons, probably.

Value loss

All this amounts to not being happy with the way car is behaving and I am expecting it to behave.
When I went to dealership where I bought and serviced the car to trade it in for another car. Same make and model, only younger (in hope that this one is not going to behave like the first one). I was given an estimate of losing 35-40% of cars value. Car, at that point was, 17 months old, and had 42.000 km on the clock, in mint condition. My car is a TDI (1.6) Highline model with DSG7 with all kind of extras for at least €15.000. And yet, I am losing 35-40% of its value. Why?

Dealership have in their used-cars department a Comfort and Trendline models, same age, with manual transmission and about 15.000 km less on the clock then mine, and they are selling them for more than what they estimated my car value is. I understand they need to earn some money on the resale of the car, but 35% is a bit too much of the value loss, especially if Volkswagen AG is saying there is nothing wrong with the car.

For comparation take a look at this…

  • Comfortline (manual) : NEW = 370.000 DKK vs. USED = 309.000 DKK (– 16%)
  • My Highline (aut. DSG7) : NEW = 475.000 DKK vs. USED/ESTIMATED = 300.000 DKK (-35%)

Alone the difference in DSG7 vs. manual should give at least 45.000 DKK more in value for my car, not even taking into account that the car has;

  • park assist,
  • light assist,
  • cabin warmer, (with remote)
  • mirror package,
  • winter package,
  • sport package,
  • 17″ Oakland wheels.

 

Bulletin TPI2026097

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Found this piece of information on TPI2026096 bulletin, that I was looking for few days ago. It suggests complete opposite what VW Denmark have told me. This tells me that they are either not aware of this or that they are willingly trying to hide the problem.

This also tells that there is an issue, and that they cannot fix it at present, as they obviously don’t know what is wrong or causing the problem. But there is a problem, that is most important to me. This supports also those reports I already found online. Regarding China, Russia, India, Malaysia regarding extended/prolonged warranties for customers with DSG7 gearbox. Customers in China and Russia have received official apology letters, but in Europe they are hiding it from the customers.

Bulletin 2026097/1 issued 25.08.11. Transmission – Vibrations, jerking and clattering when changing 1 – 2 while accelerating.
1.4TSi / 7Spd DSG.

Customer’s remarks:
Juddering/Clattering in 2nd gear for 2 seconds accelerating through 5 – 10kph or when changing 1st to 2nd at low speed or when reversing.
Occurs once the car has warmed up.

Reason: 
Drop of friction value of multiple clutch.

Current situation:
Currently no effective repair possible. Repalcing the multiple clutch does does not effectively fix the complaint. There is no parts damage. Working on a solution.

Complaint not caused by the two-mass flywheel.

Postpone repairs until a solution is available.

Read more about problems in Australia as well. There are 43 pages on the topic on an Australian discussion forum, many users are reporting the same issue I have with my VW Touran. And yet, VW is telling me it’s completely normal. They need reality check! Normal is “smooth operation”, not having car in the shop, for 11% of the time. I did not buy a car to have it spend time in the shop.

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f112/golf-7-speed-dsg-shudder-clutch-issues-45873.html