Tag: problem

Possible ex gratia rumour for DSG7 owners in Denmark

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Few days ago, I’ve been notified about some reports that VW Denmark has issued ex gratia on DSG7 gearboxes. According to the rumours, which I was not able to confirm just yet, it will cover DSG7 gearboxes not older than 6 years, or 200.000 kilometers.

Al though it is not warranty, this could be positive in reassuring confidence in VW DSG7 gearboxes, that were hit with massive global problems on almost all markets except European.

Must point out that this rumour has not been confirmed, only something I’ve read on a Danish VAGcars.dk forums. According to posters of the rumour, they are either working in Volkswagen Service Partner or know someone who does. Which is of course positive, but I will need to have some written documentation, before I can take it as granted. Too many times I’ve been burnt by oral agreement and later on, they forgot all about it. So, for now, this is only to be considered as a rumour, and nothing else but that.

What does “ex gratia” means?

It means that Volkswagen covers partial costs of parts, and only, parts or repairs/replacements of parts, out of the goodwill/kindness. You will still have to pay hourly rate your service partner charges.

VW in China recalls imported cars as well

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Some more news from China, about DSG7 (DQ200) gearboxes. VW in China is issuing recall on imported cars as well. That is, VW cars with DSG7, not manufactured in China. Which was the fundamental excuse for Volkswagen’s claim for not recognising the same problem in the rest of the world. Even thou symptoms and problems are 100% identical to those in China. Volkswagen, so far, is still refusing to acknowledge existence of the problem in Europe and elsewhere.

With this latest recall, one could conclude following;

  • VW is well aware of the issue with their DQ200 gearboxes and is trying to hide the extend of the problem.
  • All DQ200 gearboxes are manufactured in China, contrary to what VW wants us to believe.

To recap, for less informed readers on recall

Across Europe and world as well, VW is claiming that only Chinese manufactured gearboxes are defective and therefore, no other markets are affected by this problem with their DSG7 (DQ200) gearboxes. But this new recall, that is actually recalling imported cars (non-Chinese manufactured) with DSG7. Which throws out of the window VW theories/reasons for defective gearboxes. On all continents there are customers with DSG7 gearboxes, with same problems. Only difference there is, how Volkswagen is “forced” to react. Everything else about this problem is actually identical.

  • Power loss
  • Slipping clutches
  • Noise

Read the original article :: http://english.cri.cn/6826/2013/07/04/2702s773954.htm

DSG DQ200 0AM – Problems and thoughts

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Was sent this few days ago. It’s a document that dwells a bit more into problems of VAG 7-speed DSG gearbox. In a bit more detail, than I was able to do and found before.

DSG DQ200 0AM – Problems and thoughts

There is one interesting thing here, that I was not aware of before, and it is the knowledge of the problem. According to this document, VAG/VW knew about the problem, at the time I bought the car. They did not acknowledge this, when I was ordering my car. I asked them specifically about any problems with this gearbox, and they told me in a way, that it is “the best they made”.

Volkswagen Taiwan extends warranty on all cars with DSG7 gearboxes

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In short: Volkswagen Taiwan extends warranty period to 5 years and unlimited mileage, for all owners of VW cars with DSG7 gearbox.
Here is Google Translate, translation of the statement.

Taiwan market will be extended to the DSG gearbox warranty period from the existing four-year unlimited mileage five ‧ Taiwan market for cars equipped with the DSG gearbox software update initiative recall (Taipei, December 27, 2012) Volkswagen The Taiwanese distributor Taikoo Motors announced Biaoda, to enhance driving safety, Swire Pacific Standard Car production for March 2012 with a seven-speed DSG dual-clutch gearbox cars initiative recall, and software upgrades. At the same time, thanks to the support of the majority of consumers, Volkswagen and Swire marked up to the car and announced that the DSG gearbox for four years unlimited mileage warranty period is extended to five years with unlimited mileage, and self-licensable day start at. According to Volkswagen, under certain conditions, especially the outside temperature and humidity is high and after a long time in parking, a minority may be equipped with a seven-speed DSG dual-clutch gearbox cars boron crystallization or due to electronic failure, causing the vehicle to the road between losing momentum or lose part of the stall or fixed gear driving will stall indicator flashes, the situation of the road between the jitter and clutch power output, a small number of vehicles may not be able to continue driving. In order to improve traffic safety, to software upgrades for cars equipped with a seven-speed DSG dual-clutch gearbox Volkswagen the Taiwan distributor Swire standard Car initiative to take preventive measures to recall. Since March 2012, the Volkswagen factory and the the Swire Biaoda car had already taken the initiative for the seven-speed DSG dual-clutch gearbox free software upgrade service. Currently only a small number of owners of the car has not been back to the factory, Swire standard car will take the initiative to despatch of the letter notice not yet back to the factory owners. The necessary software free update time is about 30 minutes. If the owners have any questions please contact Volkswagen Free :0800 -068,068.

Link to original version in Chinese: http://www.volkswagen.tw/tw/zh/about_volkswagen/news_and_event/news_index/news20121227.html

 

Evidence against theory of “Serial Production Standard” …

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Last time I spoke to my VW Service Partner and VW Importer for Denmark, they wanted to find a reference car to see if this car has the same noise, and if it behaves the same way as mine does. I guess they are hoping to prove to me, that this car/model is supposed to do this. As they keep on telling me, that this is normal behavior for this make and model. And they need exact car as mine, to use it as reference point. I tried to argue and reason with them, in regard, that I could find evidence of others having same problems, on different makes and models. But it felt to deaf ears.

Here I will try to prove that this has nothing to do with the car/model or make but that it has to do with DSG7 design, which is most probably, flawed by design. And this is not going to be that hard, as this is easy to prove by simple search on the internet. So their reasoning, is, this is “serial production standard”. I wrote about this in my last post, here.

If this is Serial Production Standard for my car;

  • why is this happening to other models and makes;
  • why this did not happened from the start;
  • when they replaced the flywheel on my car, problem disappeared for about 18.000 km and then it came back, why.

No answers to these questions.

Let’s have a look on what models I have been able to find same complaints from their owners.

  • AUDI
    • A1 (1)
  • SKODA
    • Fabia (1) (2)
  • SEAT
    • Ibiza (1)
  • VW
    • Touran (1)
    • Scirocco (1)
    • Golf (1) (2) (3) (4)
    • Jetta (1)

This makes it easy for me to logically conclude that my car/model is not alone in this so-called, “Serial Production Standard”, and trying to prove it by finding a reference car that has the same configuration as mine is not going to prove anything. This is again, most probably an attempt to extend their time in which they have to figure out what to do, or how to reply to my inquiries, and waste mine.

Thread (in Danish) about problems with DSG7, on one of the big names in online used cars websites of cars in Denmark  Link: http://www.bilbasen.dk/forum/generelt/erfaring-med-automatikdsg/23512

On a Danish website, for owners of all Volkswagen AG (VAG) cars, are gathered and discuss all aspects of their cars, there is a poll about problems in general with DSG (6 and 7), and result is showing it clearly. Poll and discussion: http://www.vagcars.dk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=60305

Results as of writing this are, 110 people answered the poll, 68 (62%) did not have problems and 38% did have problems. Out of these there are 21 with DSG7 gearboxes. Of those, 10 (48%) had problems, while 11 (52%) did not have problems. I know, this poll is not scientific in any way, but that’s what it shows. 

UPDATE: in the complaint case, response from the dealership

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So, the authority I complained to regarding my vows with my VW and its DSG7 gearbox, finally got the dealership to respond to my complaints. And basically, they do not see it as their responsibility. Case is not done, and is now up to the authority to decide what should be next step in the process. Below, I’ve translated the response from the dealership. Not that there is anything useful said, but still. To give an indication, what I am up against. Declining all responsibilities because importer has been involved in the case. Internal policies are not concerns of mine, I bought the car from the dealership. They bought it from the importer. I am complaining about my car to dealership, they should to importer.

Here is the response from the dealership.

Company agrees with the information the consumer has indicated: No.
We did not consider it appropriate to comment on the case history that does not involve us, but we can confirm that we have sold the car to the consumer and made a warranty repair on the instructions of the manufacturer / importer of VW.

Company agrees with the user’s production of proceedings: No
We are not able to comment on a case history that does not involve us – but can confirm that we have carried out a warranty repair as directed by the manufacturer / importer of VW

The company is prepared to meet consumer demands: No
In our opinion, the VW importer with customer acceptance has intervened in this case and therefore we can not accept any responsibilities in this case and repairs not carried out by us.

 

Sent yet another mail

Just sent yet another mail, asking for updates.
Last time I spoke to them on the phone, they told me, that they are not going to do anything unless they can find this “reference car” that matches my model. Deadline for this was on November 9th, but they extended it indefinitely. Wanted to know if I am waiting for this car till kingdom come or what?

UPDATE: Got the reply. They are doing nothing, as result of my complaint to Authority for car complaints (or whatever it is called in English :-)) …
Which is understandable. But I would still prefer, VW tried to fix this, instead of waiting for some bodies conclusion on, whether they should have sold me the car or not.

So for now, there is nothing but to wait…

Comment: Serial Production Standard

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I wanted to comment on few things regarding Volkswagen’s conclusion on my problems with DSG7 gearbox.

After replacing a DSG7 gearbox, flywheel, dual clutches (twice), mechatronic (reset twice and replacement once) the car/gearbox is still making grinding noise and shuddering/juddering and having uneven acceleration on periodical basis.
They (VW) concluded that this is “Serial Production Standard”.

What does this Serial Production Standard means?

Well in my mind, this means that the car is behaving within normal parameters of operation they are expecting to see. Which in turn means, they can acknowledge  my complaints, but they are not going to do anything about it, as they mean I should live with it.

There are few things, in their conclusion, I don’t agree with;

  • First of all, their Serial Production Standards might be set too low, as no car I have driven so far, has done this. If Volkswagen is expecting customers to live with faulty hardware they paid premium for, they really need a reality check. I am not accepting anything less than what I paid for, as I have my own standards what should a car make and not make of noises. I am probably not alone in this, either. Metallic grinding noises are not standard in any mechanical device. This is either considered as a sign of poor hardware design or worn parts. Grinding is always considered sign for premature ware of the hardware and cause for concern. And this is to be expected in moving parts, even when lubricated. But, it is not supposed to ware after only 5.000 km. This is not a standard and can’t be a standard for few reasons.
    1. When I bought the car, it did not make this noise, nor did it shake my kidney stones. Ergo, can not be a standard, as it was not there the whole time, but something that car started to make/do afterwards.
    2. Car was manufactured wrongly, and it fixed itself while I was driving it? Bought a car no noise no juddering.

When they replaced flywheel, noise and shaking disappeared. But, it came back again after some time, so this makes me think replacing flywheel is not the permanent solution. But it might have solved it temporarily. So, to claim that this is standard noise, is just rubbish and trying to avoid real cause of the problem. I might conclude following if I am to believe their conclusion.

  • Noise and juddering, disappeared after a visit to their shop, it might be they installed fly-wheel incorrectly. As it took a whole year before it started to make the “standard” noises and shake again. Either they destroyed something while replacing flywheel in the car, and then the car used a year to fix itself, or there is real problem that should not be ignored. But, who knows?! Maybe that’s why we (VW owners) pay premium. VW cars can fix themself. Now, that’s what I call getting good value for the money. (Be aware of irony)
  • Also, their conclusion does not explain for why some cars have this problem, while others don’t. Across the makes even, but all owned by VAG (Volkswagen AG). I’ve seen reports from owners of Skoda, SEAT and VW; all with the same DSG7 gearbox and with exact the same problems across the world. In Denmark, in one poll, this was approximately 20% of owners that had problems with their DSG7 gearbox. It is not specified what kind of problems. I am not saying poll results as absolute results and can’t be wrong, but it does make me wonder why did 20% had problems. There may even be more than 20%, but are not aware of the noise or they haven’t reached the “ware”-threshold for when the problem is noticeable. Or even that they are waiting for a warning “light” turn on before they take action.

Another thing…

I can live with the noise, but I just want to be assured that this is not premature ware, as I am suspecting it to be. And reports/letters from VW officials in China, Russia, Malaysia and USA are not assuring me in this. They are extending warranty on all DSG7 gearboxes to 10 years or 150-160.000 km. Reasoning being, “no permanent fix for the problem exist”, so to assure owners in the product they are extending warranty. Guess what, if it’s the same gearbox and same problems worldwide, why keep it isolated only to few countries, when this gearbox is sold worldwide? Economical reasons, probably.

Value loss

All this amounts to not being happy with the way car is behaving and I am expecting it to behave.
When I went to dealership where I bought and serviced the car to trade it in for another car. Same make and model, only younger (in hope that this one is not going to behave like the first one). I was given an estimate of losing 35-40% of cars value. Car, at that point was, 17 months old, and had 42.000 km on the clock, in mint condition. My car is a TDI (1.6) Highline model with DSG7 with all kind of extras for at least €15.000. And yet, I am losing 35-40% of its value. Why?

Dealership have in their used-cars department a Comfort and Trendline models, same age, with manual transmission and about 15.000 km less on the clock then mine, and they are selling them for more than what they estimated my car value is. I understand they need to earn some money on the resale of the car, but 35% is a bit too much of the value loss, especially if Volkswagen AG is saying there is nothing wrong with the car.

For comparation take a look at this…

  • Comfortline (manual) : NEW = 370.000 DKK vs. USED = 309.000 DKK (– 16%)
  • My Highline (aut. DSG7) : NEW = 475.000 DKK vs. USED/ESTIMATED = 300.000 DKK (-35%)

Alone the difference in DSG7 vs. manual should give at least 45.000 DKK more in value for my car, not even taking into account that the car has;

  • park assist,
  • light assist,
  • cabin warmer, (with remote)
  • mirror package,
  • winter package,
  • sport package,
  • 17″ Oakland wheels.

 

Called my Service Partner today

After waiting for more than 7 business days, and no contact by them,  I decided to call them.

So I call them, and they are waiting for a “reference” car. Which means, a car that has same specs and similar mileage as mine. This, I was told a year ago as well. Their plan is, find this reference car and check if it is making the same noise and behaviour as mine does. If it does, they will see what they can do. If it does not, then I have no merit in my complaints. That’s what they are planing and saying.

I told them about this reference car, that I was promised last year, and was “never found”. What would make it any different this time? They assured me that they are good in finding stuff like this. Well, I guess we will see. A bit less than a month left on my warranty.

All this, to me, sounds like dragging feet, until my warranty expires. I hope I am wrong, but they haven’t heard last from me just yet.

At the same time I informed them about my research from here, they claim that they never heard about China, Russia, USA extending warranties and complaints on other models with DSG7 gearbox around the world. So I sent them links to the documents. If in China more than 1 million DSG7 units are sold and they all got extended warranty, hard to believe there were no internal memos sent throughout VW concern. But I guess 1 million (probably) faulty units are not cause for concern in VW.

Bulletin TPI2026097

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Found this piece of information on TPI2026096 bulletin, that I was looking for few days ago. It suggests complete opposite what VW Denmark have told me. This tells me that they are either not aware of this or that they are willingly trying to hide the problem.

This also tells that there is an issue, and that they cannot fix it at present, as they obviously don’t know what is wrong or causing the problem. But there is a problem, that is most important to me. This supports also those reports I already found online. Regarding China, Russia, India, Malaysia regarding extended/prolonged warranties for customers with DSG7 gearbox. Customers in China and Russia have received official apology letters, but in Europe they are hiding it from the customers.

Bulletin 2026097/1 issued 25.08.11. Transmission – Vibrations, jerking and clattering when changing 1 – 2 while accelerating.
1.4TSi / 7Spd DSG.

Customer’s remarks:
Juddering/Clattering in 2nd gear for 2 seconds accelerating through 5 – 10kph or when changing 1st to 2nd at low speed or when reversing.
Occurs once the car has warmed up.

Reason: 
Drop of friction value of multiple clutch.

Current situation:
Currently no effective repair possible. Repalcing the multiple clutch does does not effectively fix the complaint. There is no parts damage. Working on a solution.

Complaint not caused by the two-mass flywheel.

Postpone repairs until a solution is available.

Read more about problems in Australia as well. There are 43 pages on the topic on an Australian discussion forum, many users are reporting the same issue I have with my VW Touran. And yet, VW is telling me it’s completely normal. They need reality check! Normal is “smooth operation”, not having car in the shop, for 11% of the time. I did not buy a car to have it spend time in the shop.

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f112/golf-7-speed-dsg-shudder-clutch-issues-45873.html